[Superhero]

Hello,

Hopefully I choose the right forum for this topic. 

So it seems all ATV suffer from a fairly weak alternator setup. Specially when adding LED lights and using the winsch for snow plowing etc...  I simply find the alternator not having enough output even if it is in a good working condition. This is not a fault trace thrad but rather searching påtions to if there are any upgrades available? Thinking I have seen 850W stators for can-ams?! but for CF-moto I'm not sure?! I got a 2012 Terralander 800 but from what I understand the stator and rectifier are more or less the same between years.

Any input would be helpful.

Thanks!

[NMKawierider]

Automobiles use a veriable field alternator which gives it the ranges you see but can not be placed under water as off-road vehicles do. Their alternators or generators are three-phase but are positioned inside the engine and cooled by the engine's oil. They are a fixed-field or magnet system. The only thing you can do is increase the field output by increasing the number of windings on the stator coils and change the rectifier/regulator to aid with that change.  There are several companies out there that either offer upgraded stators and other components and/or will take your old stator and re-wind it to output more. However there are limitations on just how much you can get as the upgraded coils must fit in an already specified location. 20-40% increase is common but about it. The two top companies that people go to are RMstator and Rick's motorsport electric. I suggest contacting them. One other option for you is if your 2012 800 didn't come with power steering you could get the stator for the 800 that did. They are several hundred watts higher. Also get the rectifier as well. You will never get enough power to run a winch without depleting the battery over time.. but you can slow it some. Good luck. 

[Superhero]

Wow, what a friendly and educated reply. Thank you very much.

What you say is much in line with my own findings and thinking.

I'm very much inline with that for example the winch will always be a net drain as is uses like 1000W. Still I find the charging a little too weak to be reasonable.

I'll measure some charging wattages before and after rectifier and see what can be done.

I already got a lifepo4 24Ah battery that can take the charge much better then Pb so slowly getting there I hope. A 30% upgrade from a better stator sounds legit. Will look in to that too after first measuring my base line


Again thanks

[Superhero]

So I emailed RM Stator. While waiting I went through more youtube videos and found more info. Seems upgrading the Rectifier to a MOSFET unit helps a little. Next step would be to rewind the stator with dual coils and run two rectifiers in parallell. Certainly doable even as a DIY project but well... takes some time and if I disassemble the charging unit on my quad I bet we get 6ft of snow the next day.

So I went ahead and ordered a RM Stator rectifier.

Then I got a reply from RM stator kindly telling me they had nothing to fit the X8 Terralander and that I should search ATV forums for solutions to my problems ;-)  I went back to them asking about the generic MOSFET regulator I bought and got a little deeper reply telling me it probably won't fit but the general function of the rectifiers are all the same and it's likely to work.

So, well.... fast replies but not chasing after me wanting to rewind my stator. Haha.

I'm happy so far and I'll try the new rectifier verifying charging performance before and after switching units.

One thing the forum might know is where the output from the rectifier goes? It disappears in to the loom and I have not yet removed the tubing to trace it.  My wondering is if it routes to the batteri directly with no switches in between or of it disconnects with ignition off.

Following the wiring diagram is not 100% clear.  Again I'll find it out sooner or later, but asking is fun

RM stator also offers rectifiers for li-ion batteries. How ever I went for the stock 14.4volt unit as my li-ion can take 14.4volts and getting the voltage up 0.3v extra benefits the total usable capacity.

Exciting days

[NMKawierider]

I don't know about the X8 but but it's probably the same. It taps into the system power just after the main fuse and before the distribution fuses. Here's a clipping:

[Superhero]

I don't know about the X8 but but it's probably the same. It taps into the system power just after the main fuse and before the distribution fuses. Here's a clipping:

Thank you. That diagram is very clear. I must check mine again. Tracing with a highligher is a great idea. Im clever, but some times the easiest solution goes under the radar.

Again thanks 1000 for helping.

EDIT:

On my schematics the starter motor symbol was not marked only a circle plus the wire from the rectifier made a connection just before the 30A fuse. Thats why I didn't get it at first.

I did a little drive now and the voltage drops during my 15min ride with LED bar on drawing 12 amps. While home the dash said 12.4volts anf my multimeter said 13volts. So the dash is 0.6volts low.

I did measure output from the stock rectifier and it was 22amps. LED ramp on or off still 22amps.  22amps at about 13volts 286W which seems low.  The new MOSTFET rectifier arrives tomorrow to see if it helps. Next step will be to make all new fat wires directly from the rectifier to the battery.

Sooner or later I will have this charging like a boss. It's just a matter of time and a little cursing. :-)

 

[Siberian]

I have a 2021 CForce 600 Tour.  I like the machine, it certainly has more bells and whistles than my 30 y.o. Suz King Quad.  That said, its Main Job is plowing snow.  To that end, I fabricated a base mount with an added pulley system for a used 48" snowplow.  I had a few errors that were easily fixed, but everything works fine with the OEM winch.

My 600T always says a "Low Batt" when I hook it up to a WallyWorld trickle charger.  This is after a start, run down the hill, back up, maybe 600-700 yards total distance.  I only have about 20 miles on the 600 T at this time.  I only use the winch to raise/lower plow, guessing at 25-35 times during 13-18(?) trips up/down the hill.  Still, when snow finished, connect Bat-Tender and it says "Lo".

Is this normal for a new 2021 CForce 600 Tour?  I don't go fast plowing, just a slow speed.  I use HI because I only plow downhill, not back up the hill.  Speaking of "downhill". I plow in HI range, not LO.  I figure it is less strain going downhill, so is OK in HI.  Thoughts?  Is there something wrong with charging system right at the on-set?  This "Lo" message always came on even without plowing or using winch.

I am cool with mechanical stuff on ATV, just not great (actually poor) on the electrical stuff of modern digital ATVs.  Since you folks are talking about low voltage-recharges, is there something wrong with my electrical system? 

My 600T has not been to a dealer yet.  It has about 20 miles on it.  They also have a few really odd-ball motorcycles that gave them problems assembling from crates.  I knew answers and "Run Issues" from other forums and my experience.  They didn't so I helped put a few brand new MCs together for them.  The local dealer seems to be inept at best, judging by showroom staff and near zero answers on technical questions in service dept. 

Comments or thoughts appreciated.

YMMV 

[NMKawierider]

May have a battery problem but more often people put these way with partly depleted batteries. The problem is most people don't realize how long it takes to recharge a battery..completely, not just a fast surface charge. Consider this, maximum stator output is above 2800 RPM. Not always going to get that in high range. For every 10 seconds of 20 amp draw...and a winch is about that, at best it takes over 10 minutes to completely put back what was taken out of the battery. Now run that winch every 2 or 3 minutes as you would plowing and you can see that.. far more is being taken out then is being put back taking the battery farther and farther down. Some get larger batteries which gives them more time as they will store more..but take longer to recharge. They should always start out with a 100% charged battery...keep it on a tender at all times when not in use. Others...well besides trying upgrade the charging system to get the extra 20%, will invest in an actual plow lift. They are screw drive, use a 3rd the power the winch does and will last far longer then the winch being used as a plow lift. Not cheap, yes...but will save a lot of batteries, winches, stators and rectifiers in the long run. Something for you guys that plow a lot to think about. CF Motos come with a 30-dollar Chinese winch that's not going to last long anyway.. and to replace that with any decent (not a Harbor Freight) winch will cost hundreds. Just food for thought.

[Superhero]

I have a 2021 CForce 600 Tour.  I like the machine, it certainly has more bells and whistles than my 30 y.o. Suz King Quad.  That said, its Main Job is plowing snow.  To that end, I fabricated a base mount with an added pulley system for a used 48" snowplow.  I had a few errors that were easily fixed, but everything works fine with the OEM winch.

My 600T always says a "Low Batt" when I hook it up to a WallyWorld trickle charger.  This is after a start, run down the hill, back up, maybe 600-700 yards total distance.  I only have about 20 miles on the 600 T at this time.  I only use the winch to raise/lower plow, guessing at 25-35 times during 13-18(?) trips up/down the hill.  Still, when snow finished, connect Bat-Tender and it says "Lo".

Is this normal for a new 2021 CForce 600 Tour?  I don't go fast plowing, just a slow speed.  I use HI because I only plow downhill, not back up the hill.  Speaking of "downhill". I plow in HI range, not LO.  I figure it is less strain going downhill, so is OK in HI.  Thoughts?  Is there something wrong with charging system right at the on-set?  This "Lo" message always came on even without plowing or using winch.

I am cool with mechanical stuff on ATV, just not great (actually poor) on the electrical stuff of modern digital ATVs.  Since you folks are talking about low voltage-recharges, is there something wrong with my electrical system? 

My 600T has not been to a dealer yet.  It has about 20 miles on it.  They also have a few really odd-ball motorcycles that gave them problems assembling from crates.  I knew answers and "Run Issues" from other forums and my experience.  They didn't so I helped put a few brand new MCs together for them.  The local dealer seems to be inept at best, judging by showroom staff and near zero answers on technical questions in service dept. 

Comments or thoughts appreciated.

YMMV

This is almost exactly my use case too. It's not like I have 1000W of LED light and constantly winching trucks. It's light weight garden work and still not working.  I'll share my finding here for you to be inspired by.

[Superhero]

May have a battery problem but more often people put these way with partly depleted batteries. The problem is most people don't realize how long it takes to recharge a battery..completely, not just a fast surface charge. Consider this, maximum stator output is above 2800 RPM. Not always going to get that in high range. For every 10 seconds of 20 amp draw...and a winch is about that, at best it takes over 10 minutes to completely put back what was taken out of the battery.

I'm very good at batteries. That's my thing   I do agree Pb batteries are no good but still if winching for 10 seconds at 20amps(I have to test my winch to get a reading) only needs 10seconds to recharge at 20amps charging. Possibly the battery is only charging at 5 amps which makes it 40seconds to recharge one winch run with the plow. If the battery is capable of putting put 20Ah you could run the winch for one hour. That is 360 plow lifts.

Remember your theory is only correct if we count it as tapping the 20amps for 10seconds from a 100% charged battery. To regain 100% it might take "forever" (days) but if we imagine we have 80% SOC and use 20amps for 10sec the battery can take the full 20A charge and we are back at 80% again.  This is not necessarily about charging to 100% SOC but not having a NET loss.

It's like range on electric cars. "how far can you go?" My answer always is to my destination. Haha...

Well, any way this is why I fitted the Lifepo4 battery, to eliminate the possibly bad Pb battery and related problems. Trying to fork away one possible flaw at a time. Will go around the ATV with my clamp amp meter and try to list the consumption from the different units.

[Siberian]

FWIW-
My CF600 T has ALWAYS been on a trickle charger in the garage.  Garage is not heated, but usually stays around 55F +/-.  I put a bright orange loop thing draped over gas cap to remind me to disconnect the battery tender before driving off.  3 guesses why I had to do that.

The CF600 has just sat in garage for a month between rides.  Now that snow comes about a couple of days at a time, it is Work Time, then back in garage on tender.

Should I take the trouble to go to dealer and be told nothing is wrong and buzz off?  Dunno.  What are battery brands, source, cost, etc that may be better?   Is there anything larger capacity that would suit the winch needs? 

Offhand, while the winch is nice, I never had any issue whatever with the 30 year old lever-pull-up plow system.  Natch, time takes a toll, so not lifting the plow now is appreciated.

Comments?

YMMV

[Superhero]

Comments?

Same situation!

[Superhero]

So I upgades the rectifier to the RMSTATOR one. That made a 5% increase in charging capacity. I then made a new cabeling from 6mm2(AWG9)wire directly to the batery and that made a good change too!! I forwarded this to RMSTATOR who were greatful for the info. :-)

With my LED ramps on I went from a 2,3A loss to a 1,7A charge now. And a break even with -+0 charge at 3000rpm.

LED off it now charges well at idle even with normal lights on.(except LED ramp).

Now I'm at a lever of "zero". Will try to make it even better of course. Time and me will tell haha!


Funny funny RMSTATOR directing me to forums for info LOL....

[Siberian]

So I upgades the rectifier to the RMSTATOR one. That made a 5% increase in charging capacity. I then made a new cabeling from 6mm2(AWG9)wire directly to the batery and that made a good change too!! I forwarded this to RMSTATOR who were greatful for the info. :-)

With my LED ramps on I went from a 2,3A loss to a 1,7A charge now. And a break even with -+0 charge at 3000rpm.

LED off it now charges well at idle even with normal lights on.(except LED ramp).

Now I'm at a lever of "zero". Will try to make it even better of course. Time and me will tell haha!


Funny funny RMSTATOR directing me to forums for info LOL....

So...  What are the part numbers of Resistor I need to do this stuff?  Battery number, etc? 

Is it difficult to get the plastics off to install the new resistor and so on?

Details, maybe some photos?, please.

YMMV

[Superhero]

So I upgades the rectifier to the RMSTATOR one. That made a 5% increase in charging capacity. I then made a new cabeling from 6mm2(AWG9)wire directly to the batery and that made a good change too!! I forwarded this to RMSTATOR who were greatful for the info. :-)

With my LED ramps on I went from a 2,3A loss to a 1,7A charge now. And a break even with -+0 charge at 3000rpm.

LED off it now charges well at idle even with normal lights on.(except LED ramp).

Now I'm at a lever of "zero". Will try to make it even better of course. Time and me will tell haha!


Funny funny RMSTATOR directing me to forums for info LOL....

So...  What are the part numbers of Resistor I need to do this stuff?  Battery number, etc? 

Is it difficult to get the plastics off to install the new resistor and so on?

Details, maybe some photos?, please.

YMMV

Only thing needed is the RMStator rectifier - RM-30506H and some AWG9 wires with ring terminals and possibly a 40amp fuse or so. Just swap the rectifier, crimp terminals to the AWG9 wire and plut it in to the rectifier instead on the stock black connector. It needs only a 10mm socket, nothing to me removed at all to get access.

I found that it can now do proper driving with no issues, but going by night with a 12amp load from the LED bar, driving slow and steering alot will still drain the battery. Seems the EPS uses alot of juice. I have not measured that yet.

Same with plowing. Using winsch + EPS + LED bar all at once is no good. Then I have arranged to hook up another 60Ah car battery in paralell to have a buffer. All conneted via fast disconnects to make it easy to install and remove when needed.

As an RC-pilot I got alot of 3S li-po packs. I keep one with me in case I would need to jump start the ATV - you never know!