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Offline Dohms92

Oil in zforce 800?
« on: May 29, 2017, 11:38:18 PM »
Curious what brand and weight oil everyone  uses?  Not sure whats safe for the wet clutch? Im always use to running the 0w40 full synthetic in my atvs as i live in Wisconsin and ride in winter as well. Also is the only filter so far the cfmoto brand?
Thanks everyone

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Offline chuddly

Re: Oil in zforce 800?
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2017, 06:36:52 AM »
A whole lot of people run Rotella T6 oil.  The main thing you want to make sure of is that the oil is JASO MA certified (that means its ok for the wet clutches)  If you run anything else the oil can be to slick and make your wet clutch slip and burn it up. As far as filters go there is the CF Moto filter and the K&N kn-152 that both work.  I have seen some knock off ones but never tried one of them.  The internals of my engine are hard to replace and not worth the $2 savings on an oil filter.
I can imagine a world completely at peace.  A world where there are no weapons, no war, and no violence at all.  And I can imagine us taking over that world because they would never expect it.

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Offline REDRIDER

Re: Oil in zforce 800?
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2017, 07:04:44 AM »
if you're under warranty use a CFmoto or they can void the warranty if you have an issue. I run T6

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Offline Dohms92

Re: Oil in zforce 800?
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2017, 10:52:07 AM »
Bought my zforce friday! Already road 139 miles and love it.  My dealer reccomends running polaris ps4 full synthetic 5w 50 oil in it.  Any one else run it?

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Offline NMKawierider

Re: Oil in zforce 800?
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2017, 01:09:08 PM »
Long as you are under a warranty I would run what CFM recommends. Otherwise.. they have an out if something happens. Or..I guess if I see in writing from CFM that that oil and weight is approved I would consider it..
2015 Z Force 800 53/Trail EPS-
Custom Air Intakes | Custom Exhaust Mod | SuperATV Harness | Custom Fenders | Custom Skid/Rock Sliders | 27" GBC Grim Reapers | Seizmik Mirrors |Конструктор (Rodin's) Doors | Dr Pulley Sliders | 1.5" Wheel Spacers | BENZ Silencer (as needed) | SATV Flip Windshield W\ Rear Shield | Dual Light Bars | Diamond Plate Storage | 9.7" GPS | Bandit Springs Rear & Gen-3 Shocks Front

My Videos On YouTube

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Offline Butch

Re: Oil in zforce 800?
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2017, 08:58:12 PM »
This is what CFMOTO told me.
The weight of the oil doesn’t matter as much as the fact that it needs to be wet clutch compatible oil. The weight of the oil will depend on your climate. I would ask your dealer to see what they recommend.

 

Regards,

 

Buck Olson

Technical Service Representative

CFMOTO POWERSPORTS, INC.

Plymouth, MN

Office   763-450-7875

bolson@cfmotousa.com

cid:image001.png@01D1CAF3.DC9793C0
2017 ZFORCE 800 Trail

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Offline REDRIDER

Re: Oil in zforce 800?
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2017, 09:11:43 PM »
I wouldn't run a 50 weight that's pretty thick these run high rpm the oil may be too thick to drain back quick and you may run your bottom end out of oil,  not likely but i would run a 40 weight for wet clutches,  5w 40 is better than the 15w40 is Comes with

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Offline doug80638

Re: Oil in zforce 800?
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2017, 09:07:17 AM »
I'm just trying to understand here:

My manual indicates API SG or better for the Z8, and most of the notes here recommend JASO MA and Rotella T6. The main concern seems to be oil compatibility with the wet clutch. It seems modern gasoline engine oils API SG or better (currently SN)  meet the JASO MA requirements.

http://www.roadrunner.travel/2015/04/22/keep-your-motor-runnin-with-the-right-oil/

Nearly all motorcycles today have four-stroke engines, and most motor oils are designed for them. Motor oils meeting the JASO T 903:2006 standard are classified into four grades: JASO MA, JASO MA1, JASO MA2, and JASO MB. The classification is based on the JASO T 904:2006 clutch system friction test. In order for a motor oil to meet any of these JASO standards, it must fit one or more of the following specs: API SG, SH, SJ, SL, SM or ILSAC GF-1, GF-2, GF-3. The API uses specifications for automotive gas engines such as SG, SH, SJ, SL, and SM. The current API specification is “SN,” which was introduced in October 2010 for 2011 and newer vehicles. ILSAC uses GF-1 through GF-5 (the latest).

I looked into Rottela T6 offering, a diesel engine oil, and could not find the appropriate API rating.
 
https://rotella.shell.com/products/t6-full-synthetic.html

OEM Specifications and Approvals for Shell ROTELLA® T6 full synthetic heavy duty engine oil

API: CK-4, CJ-4, CI-4 PLUS, CI-4, CH-4
ACEA E9; JASO DH-2; Cummins CES 20086; Volvo VDS-4.5; Detroit Fluid Specification (DFS) 93K222, Caterpillar ECF-2/ECF-3, MAN M3575, JASO MA/MA2, Allison TES 439, MB-Approval 228.31

I then read the following:

http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/28576/comparing-gasoline-diesel-engine-oils-

Diesel engine oil has more additives per volume. The most prevalent are overbase detergent additives. This additive has several jobs, but the main ones are to neutralize acids and clean. Diesel engines create a great deal more soot and combustion byproducts. Through blow-by, these find their way into the crankcase, forcing the oil to deal with them. When you put this extra additive load in a gasoline engine, the effects can be devastating to performance. The detergent will work as it is designed and try to clean the cylinder walls. This can have an adverse effect on the seal between the rings and liner, resulting in lost compression and efficiency.

As I approach this toy's first oil change, I want to make sure I make the right choice in engine oil.

What am I missing that makes T6 such a good match for the Z8 given the above that indicates it may not be appropriate for gas engines?





2017 Zforce 800 - Red
SuperATV Flip windshield
Tusk soft rear window
Uni-Filter foam air filter
Bandit springs

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Offline REDRIDER

Re: Oil in zforce 800?
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2017, 09:45:00 AM »
I have used T6 in all my motorcycles and toys. I don't use it in gas engines on a car as the extra zync and additives will eventually ruin a cat converter. It is cheap synthetic that is a very good oil. The amount of mileage you will get out of these small engines is not the same as a car, you will be hard pressed to find a loss of compression in a small engine from using a heavy duty diesel engine. I have never heard of it happening from the use of the oil. Most that use it use it on everything non car and never have an issue. The cleaning effect on the cylinder wall to me would seem to be a good thing nice cross hatching still seen on engines with 50k miles.  To each his own but I don't buy this loss of compression story, at least not at a mileage you will get out of a small engine.

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Offline NMKawierider

Re: Oil in zforce 800?
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2017, 10:05:17 AM »
I'm not sure everyone has read or is aware of all the differences between oils formulated for gas and diesel engines and even myself, have not read all of it but I do know from what I have read and from my late father that it isn't wise to use an oil made for one type of engine in another. The requirements and operations are very different as well as the chemicals and gasses each type produce that ends up in the oil. I ..don't and would never use a diesel engine oil in a gasoline engine, especially a high-RPM, Higher temp, shared sump application. However there are many thousands that do.. and with no.. "apparent or immediate".. side effects. Its also cheap..er then many others. In reality its probably just fine to use in small engines but JMO, and my father's, you never go cheap on fluids and filters. Buy cheap tires if you want, but not your primary component protection products. (now that's a mouth full) :)

For me, after two changes with conventional Castrol I went with Castrol Power RS 10W40. Made for racing motorcycle engines that will see conditions that far exceed anything the CFM engine will ever see. Almost 500 miles on the first change now and I still have trouble seeing it on the stick..yeah, it's still that clear. The wet clutch works perfectly and even the transmission shifts through the gears smoother. So...I'm sold and will continue using it. No, it's not cheap...but neither is engine rebuilds. For me the piece of mine of having (what I consider) the best I can find in mine is well worth it. If it fails, it won't be because of the oil.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2017, 10:10:00 AM by NMKawierider »
2015 Z Force 800 53/Trail EPS-
Custom Air Intakes | Custom Exhaust Mod | SuperATV Harness | Custom Fenders | Custom Skid/Rock Sliders | 27" GBC Grim Reapers | Seizmik Mirrors |Конструктор (Rodin's) Doors | Dr Pulley Sliders | 1.5" Wheel Spacers | BENZ Silencer (as needed) | SATV Flip Windshield W\ Rear Shield | Dual Light Bars | Diamond Plate Storage | 9.7" GPS | Bandit Springs Rear & Gen-3 Shocks Front

My Videos On YouTube

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Offline glenlivet

Re: Oil in zforce 800?
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2017, 01:13:58 PM »
Engine oil loyalties are an odd thing, like gasoline brand loyalties and cigarette brand loyalties. Belief in what is 'best' seem to go right down to our DNA.(How many times as a wide eyed wonderous kid I heard some adult male relative proclaim with great certainty and confidence, that he never puts anything but Shell gasoline, or Chevron gasoline or whatever in his car, the inference being that the brand in question is obviously and unarguably the best gasoline available)
We humans are odd critters.
 I've casually followed the 'which engine oil for wet clutch equipped ATV' subject for several years now. The concept that Shell Rotella T6 is an oil of choice for a wet clutch equipped ATV seems to have been an idea that grew wings all on its own. Someone posted that it is compliant with JASO MA2 rating and that it can be bought relatively cheaply by the 5 gallon bucket at auto parts outlets, and someone else confirmed the report, and another, and a star was born.  :o

I'm not an advanced study in engine oil science but any time I've been tempted by a display of T6 oil I have read the print that T6 is intended for diesel engines, and my innate caution has steered me away. Oil is not where I economize and save a couple of bucks.
Is T6 a wonderful super oil? Not impossible I suppose but a person would only know for sure if they had an identical control ATV undergoing an identical amount of use in identical conditions but using a different oil, for instance the recommended Lucas oil. :) Then do compression tests and leakdown etc.
Without a control comparison we don't really know, rather we believe.   ;D

Me, I'm just going to keep using the recommended oil of the recommended grade, and CF Moto filters, and if per chance something goes thud, warranty wise my nose is clean.  8) I hope.
For a nation to believe it can tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and believing he can raise himself by pulling on the handle - Winston Churchill

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Offline bezerk1

Re: Oil in zforce 800?
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2017, 04:48:10 PM »
I use Castrol conventional oil and a K&N filter.  I highly doubt that any conventional oil brand is better than any other.  The only oil I would not use is Quaker State.

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Offline Cosmosdan

Re: Oil in zforce 800?
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2017, 07:14:27 PM »
Want to start a long tread, talk oil. I started using T6 because the GY6 scooter engines and the like run great on the stuff. I did start to run it in mowers and generators too. I did start to notice guys running it in there Rotax engines and they had a ton of miles on them. I did run it in my outlander 400. At 3k miles I did the timing chain and everything in there looked great.
2013 Z6 Trail
Iron Baltic skid plates
UE Boom Speaker mount
RZR 800 Shocks
Mostly stock trail riding
25g. Rollers and A1

2016 Outlander max 570
Too new for mods yet

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Offline doug80638

Re: Oil in zforce 800?
« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2017, 09:30:32 AM »
I'm still in search of clarity after reading many posts on this subject in this forum:

Email to CFMOTO: Does CFMoto have any issues with using full synthetic oils in the 800's?
Their response    : Full synthetic is fine as long as the oil carries a JASO MA or better certification for wet clutch usage.

The API rating of "SG or Better" listed in the owner's manual got me thinking, and I then ran into this:

Comments from the API in response to our query, 11 Aug '05:
(Note this correspondence has been trimmed for length)

Higher performance engine oils such as API SJ thru SM will contain some level of friction modifier. While the friction modifier improves fuel economy, it is not compatible with wet clutches used on motorcycles. The friction modifier causes the wet clutch to slip. This is especially true if the motorcycle manufacturer recommends using only engine oils carrying API SF or SG Service Categories.

API recommends following the Original Equipment Manufacturer's (OEMs) oil recommendations. Typically an API SJ through SM engine oil would include some friction modifier. Only if the [motorcycle's] OEM indicates that higher performance engine oils such as API SJ, API SL and API SM it is possible to use these engine oils in these motorcycles.

Regards,
Dennis L. Bachelder
American Petroleum Institute
1220 L Street NW
Washington DC 20005 USA




The bottom line is that API is not concerned with wet clutch compatibility, so "SG or Better" seems like poor advice. SH seems to be the high end for wet clutches unless the oil also carries the a JASO-MA rating.

I researched more into the question of using diesel oil in a gas engine and ran into many similar statements from several oil companies. This one is from Mark Nyholm, AMSOIL Technical Product Manager:

If the diesel oil carries both specs, feel assured the oil is safe to use in diesel and gas applications. If the diesel oil does not carry the “S” category, I strongly recommend against using it in gasoline applications.

I opted to use Castrol 4T (SG/JASO-MA) for the first oil change, mostly because that was the only oil I could find that seemed to fit the requirements. I'd like to find a synthetic that satisfies the requirements, but to date, they don't seem to be readily available on the shelves of the local stores.



2017 Zforce 800 - Red
SuperATV Flip windshield
Tusk soft rear window
Uni-Filter foam air filter
Bandit springs

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Offline Cosmosdan

Re: Oil in zforce 800?
« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2017, 10:59:20 AM »
Sounds like you have found an oil you are comfortable with using. You could try asking your local auto parts store to keep a safety stock of some for you. I have done this before. They will just keep it in the back until you ask for it. You could also try shipping some to your home. Buying by the case should make it cost effective.
2013 Z6 Trail
Iron Baltic skid plates
UE Boom Speaker mount
RZR 800 Shocks
Mostly stock trail riding
25g. Rollers and A1

2016 Outlander max 570
Too new for mods yet