Intake and cvt combination 3" single snorkel or a separate 2" double?

Started by Davydo, November 18, 2019, 08:12:56 PM

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Davydo

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#15
Quote from: Davydo on December 07, 2019, 06:16:14 PM
Went with the Donaldson H002437 on the cvt intake and the Enginaire 2-20/150 on the engine intake. Got some pictures but get an error message when trying to post attachments.
The rough in picture of the stacks, still need brackets and painting.
2021 Cforce 500S,  2016 Zforce 500 HO Trail (sold).

Davydo

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#16
Quote from: Davydo on December 07, 2019, 06:16:14 PM
Went with the Donaldson H002437 on the cvt intake and the Enginaire 2-20/150 on the engine intake. Got some pictures but get an error message when trying to post attachments.
Top photo is the engine intake reroute to the rear box and the bottom is the cvt (hard to see, just part of a 3" to 2"  shower drain and a 2" short 90.)
2021 Cforce 500S,  2016 Zforce 500 HO Trail (sold).

NMKawierider

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Very nice.
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glenlivet

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I'm going to think out loud here, and I'll be ready for laughter at my ideas. :)
It would appear that the factory CVT filtration (that Brillo pad jammed in the plenum) might be relatively ineffective on purpose due to the great deal more CFM of air it must handle. I think it's just to filter out the twigs and bumblebees. As NMK found, when you filter the CVT air effectively, like the way a combustion intake needs, the filter medium is quickly overwhelmed with material and starts to impede the flow.

When dust gets into the top end via the combustion air intake it must contact the oily parts and make a lapping compound of dust and oil, with the delightful results familiar to us all.
In the CVT however the dust remains dry and even with the poorly filtered and vastly greater volume of air it passes through, wear is much less of an issue.

When I recently disassembled my 800's CVT for belt replacement I feared the amount of wear I might see in the secondary, but for all the great deal of dust I've ridden in so far in 4000+ miles, there was barely enough wear to indicate which parts slid on which! I wonder if dry dust in the CVT might even act like graphite powder. :D
(cue laughter)
I think if you get water in there though, it's a game changer.
Anyway I really like the idea of a particle separator flinging suspended material back out into the air stream, instead of just gathering it all onto the outside of a filter. I want to get one, once I figure out how to mount it with as little impact on my existing setup as I can manage.
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Davydo

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Quote from: glenlivet on December 08, 2019, 10:00:25 AM
I'm going to think out loud here, and I'll be ready for laughter at my ideas. :)
It would appear that the factory CVT filtration (that Brillo pad jammed in the plenum) might be relatively ineffective on purpose due to the great deal more CFM of air it must handle. I think it's just to filter out the twigs and bumblebees. As NMK found, when you filter the CVT air effectively, like the way a combustion intake needs, the filter medium is quickly overwhelmed with material and starts to impede the flow.

When dust gets into the top end via the combustion air intake it must contact the oily parts and make a lapping compound of dust and oil, with the delightful results familiar to us all.
In the CVT however the dust remains dry and even with the poorly filtered and vastly greater volume of air it passes through, wear is much less of an issue.

When I recently disassembled my 800's CVT for belt replacement I feared the amount of wear I might see in the secondary, but for all the great deal of dust I've ridden in so far in 4000+ miles, there was barely enough wear to indicate which parts slid on which! I wonder if dry dust in the CVT might even act like graphite powder. :D
(cue laughter)
I think if you get water in there though, it's a game changer.
Anyway I really like the idea of a particle separator flinging suspended material back out into the air stream, instead of just gathering it all onto the outside of a filter. I want to get one, once I figure out how to mount it with as little impact on my existing setup as I can manage.
I cleaned my cvt up while working on this project and found no wear at 675 miles,  a lot of very fine dust on the outer part of the pulleys and the inside of case. Im not sure if the separators will actually work until i can test them on the very dry trails we encountered late September this year. Ive got around $100 In parts. Besides if the separators aren't that's effective at least I have both my intakes above and out of most of the dust that bellows in the cab and bed area.The
2021 Cforce 500S,  2016 Zforce 500 HO Trail (sold).

NMKawierider

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I think dust can be made up of different elements based on what the starting materials are. For me before the filters the particles that were not blown out of the CVT system, so would get into the roller/slide tracks on the primary and be ground into a fine flour-like powder that not only packed up on either end of the tracks, but actually started grinding-down the sliders. See I always balance all my flyweights and sliders to minimize vibration and make note of the final weight on installation. When I service the CVT I always re-check them and was finding the weight decreasing. Not a lot but enough my scale was picking it up. I also was having to re-polish the helix ramps and pads as they were getting wear groves and even channels in the ramps. I even had to replace the pads once. Sense filtering it the inside stays clean and there has been no change to the sliders or the helix parts so...it has helped. But the price for me had been to clean that filter every ride or sometimes on the trail if long and dusty enough. Yeah..me too..I want a particle separator...but I also want it to work into what I already have and not be a problem. 
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Davydo

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Quote from: NMKawierider on December 08, 2019, 10:26:36 AM
I think dust can be made up of different elements based on what the starting materials are. For me before the filters the particles that were not blown out of the CVT system, so would get into the roller/slide tracks on the primary and be ground into a fine flour-like powder that not only packed up on either end of the tracks, but actually started grinding-down the sliders. See I always balance all my flyweights and sliders to minimize vibration and make note of the final weight on installation. When I service the CVT I always re-check them and was finding the weight decreasing. Not a lot but enough my scale was picking it up. I also was having to re-polish the helix ramps and pads as they were getting wear groves and even channels in the ramps. I even had to replace the pads once. Sense filtering it the inside stays clean and there has been no change to the sliders or the helix parts so...it has helped. But the price for me had been to clean that filter every ride or sometimes on the trail if long and dusty enough. Yeah..me too..I want a particle separator...but I also want it to work into what I already have and not be a problem.
Excellent knowledge and input NMK, by relocating the intakes out of the dust bowl and heat, in cleaner and cooler air I feel like  I've done big to start! Those particle separators I mounted in top of the stacks are just hopefully little extras to suppressing the dust injection.
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Davydo

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Done!
2021 Cforce 500S,  2016 Zforce 500 HO Trail (sold).

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NMKawierider

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Great! Time to ride!  :)

2015 Z Force 800 53/Trail EPS
Custom Air Intakes | Custom Exhaust Mod | SuperATV Harness | Custom Fenders | Custom Skid/Rock Sliders | 27" GBC Grim Reapers | Seizmik Mirrors |Конструктор Doors | Dr Pulley Sliders | 1.5" Wheel Spacers | BENZ Silencer (as needed) | SATV Flip Windshield W\ Rear Shield | Dual Light Bars | Diamond Plate Storage |7- 9.7" GPS Systems | Bandit Springs Rear & Gen-3 Shocks Front | Cage Chop Mod

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Zach_L

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I'm really liking the Donaldson TopSpin idea for snorkels.  That plus a Uni filter on the engine intake side and the TopSpin alone on the CVT side sounds like it will sort out the issue really well. 

What are your thoughts on this setup now that you've had some time with it?

Davydo

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Quote from: Zach_L on April 23, 2020, 10:54:44 AM
I'm really liking the Donaldson TopSpin idea for snorkels.  That plus a Uni filter on the engine intake side and the TopSpin alone on the CVT side sounds like it will sort out the issue really well. 

What are your thoughts on this setup now that you've had some time with it?
I installed the Donaldson H002437 on the cvt and the Enginaire 2-20/150 on the engine. Reason for the difference is the cfm of air each one takes in. The Donaldson is rated for 90-200 Cfm and the Enginaire 20-150 Cfm. At 2600 rpms the Donaldson starts spinning and the Enginaire starts spinning around 1800 rpms. Ive been on the trails once since installing and have driven around the neighborhood since, so about 60 miles. The real tests are coming when our Governor reopens the trail system here.
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Zach_L

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My reason for thinking about a pair of Donaldson units is because I have the 1000.  Figured that engine would be sucking in enough air to get the TopSpin up and going pretty early in the rev range.

Davydo

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Quote from: Zach_L on April 24, 2020, 10:35:23 AM
My reason for thinking about a pair of Donaldson units is because I have the 1000.  Figured that engine would be sucking in enough air to get the TopSpin up and going pretty early in the rev range.
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I'd imagine you are correct, twice the engine, twice the air. Probably will have to go with 3" piping all the way, you need to transition to actual automotive intake tubing and elongate to fit behind the plastics. I used 2" abs from Lowe's and made  2-3" bushings out of a 2" od / 3"id shower drain flange. Good luck!
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rlc

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Davydo, have you had a chance to test those separators yet?  I'm installing a snorkel on my engine side with a filter at the intake, plus one in the box, but if the Enginaire works for you, I may just go that way.  How does your primary filter look after this?  TIA
2019 Z8 Trail - SuperATV Flip Windshield - UniFlow Air Filter - Rayco Door Inserts - Custom Rear Cargo Rack - Custom air intake (fuel side) -