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Offline bubib5

Clutch noise and problems after service
« on: October 24, 2016, 01:04:00 PM »
Hi guys again, i hope some of you have some solution to my problem.
And the problem is as follows:

I got my Cforce 550 6 months ago, did all the regular service at my dealer, and the last one was 15 days ago, it has 2800 kilometers now, and had 2500 when i did the service as instructed by my dealer.

At the last service they did the regular oil change, both diff oil change, and as i requested they changed the CVT belt, thats where my trouble starts, after few days i noticed that the atv has lost its top speed, before i could easily reach 85-95 kilometers per hour, and now i can barely reach 75 KM/H when i hit the 7800 RPMs and it stops pulling.

I also asked the dealer to remove any restrictions and they said it didnt have any.

Next problem has appeared just this past weekend as i went some trail riding with my wife, after an hour of riding i stopped at some incline, it was not a large hill, and when i tried to take off the RPMs went up but the atv rolled backwards, tried putting it in Low and the same happened, although after some movement of the throttle it started going forward.

It seems like something is slipping in the CVT.

This only happens when i ride for some time, when its all cold there are no problems.

The final problem started today, i went on some trail riding alone, and at one point i could not take off on flat ground any more, same slipping in the CVT, i let it cool off and it worked until i got home.

Later this day i got some serious noise from the CVT, i took off the cover, everything was dry, but the primary if its called so, the one on the right was full of some metal shavings, silver metal dust of some kind.
I recorded a movie ill post a link, altough its very bad quality you can clearly hear the bad noise.

Of course i called the service, but they said to take it to them and they will see how much the fault costs, i emediatly told them that they had changed the belt ony 250 kilometers ago and that it could only be their fault, but they wont hear about that, blaiming the operator fault.

I really dont go mudding, or do crazy driving, i cruise around the hills and forest of my hometown.

Please give me some advice what could have caused this, and what could be the fault, so i can prepare myself for the service guy and so i can have some arguments when dealing with them.

Sorry for the long post, and my bad english!

Thnx in advance!

feature=youtu.be

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Online NMKawierider

Re: Clutch noise and problems after service
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2016, 01:28:58 PM »
I can't say for sure but from all appearances from your description I would say they either put on the wrong belt or did not install the clutches correctly. Either way, it's not your fault.. And...I would not ride it anymore until the problem is found and fixed as the metal particles are saying something is being damaged. You might check the torque on the retainer bolts.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2016, 01:30:47 PM by NMKawierider »
2015 Z Force 800 (53") EPS -
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Offline bubib5

Re: Clutch noise and problems after service
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2016, 01:43:18 PM »
Yeah, i will not ride it at all, will winch it on a trailer and take it to them on the trailer, although its only 20 kilometers from my home.

I cant say if it is the wrong belt, but i noticed the right clutch has some blue dots, and two of them are aligned and the third is not, and it has some freeplay, i can turn it by hand left and right the outer part of it, and it also has some movement in and out, only small but noticable, i will put the cover back on tommorow and take it in on wednesday to the dealer.

I am just affraid that the whole primary, if i am calling it correctly is gone, as the amount of the dust is not small.

And that they will try to charge it to me.

Thats why i am gathering information on what could be the problem and what could have caused it so i dont get played by them!

Thnx for your comment..

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Offline murdo

Re: Clutch noise and problems after service
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2016, 02:31:14 AM »
Something definately not right there. Did the dealer use a CFMoto belt or an aftermarket one?
Needs to be covered by warranty. If dealer will not help, go to the importer or CFMoto themselves.

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Offline bubib5

Re: Clutch noise and problems after service
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2016, 04:12:01 PM »
Well by the looks of the belt i would say its not the original belt, but will see tommorow as its D day :)

And the problem in Croatia is that the dealer is also the importer for my country, and thinking back now, i did notice that the mechanic working on my atv seemed like he has no idea what the hell he was doing, my biggest mistake is that i left the shop instead of waiting, which is what i will do tommorow.

Ill post back as soon as i get some news!

Thnx for the input guys!
Cheers

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Offline bubib5

Re: Clutch noise and problems after service
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2016, 05:43:42 AM »
And the verdict is in!

They have not used an original belt, therfore the belt managed to tear the nut on the primary, and untighten the bolt on the primary also..

By the words of the service nothing else was damaged, and the only thing they have to change is the belt and the nut.
Hopefully it will be over till the end of the day, as they have to locate the nut as its not in stock at the moment!

I am reliefed!

Cheers

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Online NMKawierider

Re: Clutch noise and problems after service
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2016, 07:43:30 AM »
That's ridicules. Those people are yanking your chain.  Belts don't tear or loosen clutch retainer bolts and nuts. The "mechanic" didn't torque it.. or them. You best check them when you get it home for yourself. And..I can tell you that there will be damage to the splines on the end of the primary shaft as well as the cam plate so.. they are full of it. 
« Last Edit: October 26, 2016, 08:25:42 AM by NMKawierider »
2015 Z Force 800 (53") EPS -
Custom Air Intakes | Custom Exhaust Mod | SuperATV Harness | Custom Fenders | Custom Skid/Rock Sliders | 27" GBC Grim Reapers | Seizmik Mirrors |Конструктор (Rodin's) Doors | Dr Pulley Sliders | 1.5" Wheel Spacers | BENZ Silencer (as needed) | SATV Flip Windshield W\ Rear Shield | Dual Light Bars | Diamond Plate Storage | 9.7" GPS | Bandit Springs Rear & Gen-3 Shocks Front

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Offline bubib5

Re: Clutch noise and problems after service
« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2016, 10:38:02 AM »
Well the story continues!

I did check and tried to tighten the bolt and the nut on the primary, but failed to do so as i am not skilled with mechanics, and it seemed everything is ok..

But sadly i was wrong, it started the knocking noise when on idle again, this time just after 70 kilometers, i did a light trail ride today and here it is again.

Now this time around no slipping or any other problems besides the noise..

I was told everything was undamaged only that the primary has been loosed up with the wrong belt.

This time around i am quite pissed of as i really dont push the machine hard at all, i ride light trails, never used the diff lock, and only used 4x4 5 times..

Is this a common problem with the CVT tech or what the hell is wrong?

I curse the day i let them change my belt for the first time, should have left it the was it was..

Please give me some advice, or better yet what is the correct was of tightening, i got a mechanic friend who deals with cars, if i knew the procedure i could let him try to fix it, so my question is how do we take it apart, what to check, the rollers, weights or what ever is in there, and how do we put it back, and what are the torque to tighten it at?

Any pictures or manuals would do wonders!

Thnx in advance, i dont have faith in the service any more and would really hesitate to take it to them again!

Cheers, Bubi

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Online NMKawierider

Re: Clutch noise and problems after service
« Reply #8 on: October 30, 2016, 10:50:50 AM »
The best advise I can give you is "learn your machine". Get the service manual start reading. Most all your answers are in it. With it and a few tools you will be able to do 90% of all things on your machine. Now..I have some videos in the How to section on CFM clutches that part will apply to the 500s so that will also help.
2015 Z Force 800 (53") EPS -
Custom Air Intakes | Custom Exhaust Mod | SuperATV Harness | Custom Fenders | Custom Skid/Rock Sliders | 27" GBC Grim Reapers | Seizmik Mirrors |Конструктор (Rodin's) Doors | Dr Pulley Sliders | 1.5" Wheel Spacers | BENZ Silencer (as needed) | SATV Flip Windshield W\ Rear Shield | Dual Light Bars | Diamond Plate Storage | 9.7" GPS | Bandit Springs Rear & Gen-3 Shocks Front

My Videos On YouTube

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Offline bubib5

Re: Clutch noise and problems after service
« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2016, 11:12:09 AM »
Well did download the service manual, but its like it does not apply to my clutch type, the one in the manual on the primary only has a nut, mine has a nut and a screw in it!

I did watch your vids and saw you use a special tool to take the primary off, i dont think i could improvise a tool like that, but i bet my friend could..

Will take it to him in two days, and try to tighten the bloody thing all over again, i just cant think of a reason that could loosen it in only a 70 kilometer ride..

Also in the manual it states only a 40 NM torque on the primary, is it correct? it kind of seems to little, should we use loctite?

Sorry for bothering you, but i cant find any relevant information on-line at this moment, all i could figure out is that the service manual kind of does not apply to my machine, i have the engine brake type, with the cvt tech primary and secondary type..


EDIT:
I managed to find the exact primary on the cv tech web page, its a trailblock model!

The secondary i could not identify on their page, nor i have the model, but from what i remember when i took of the cvt cover it was a cv tech definetly!

« Last Edit: October 30, 2016, 11:22:35 AM by bubib5 »

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Online NMKawierider

Re: Clutch noise and problems after service
« Reply #10 on: October 30, 2016, 11:36:35 AM »
Kinda unclear as to the light torque spec for the primary being 40NM-29.50 ftlbs and the secondary being 115NM=84ftlbs. May be a misprint? The Z8s take 80ftlbs on both....and I don't use loc-tite but the book calls for it and others do use it.

These are pretty simple clutches so when they are taken apart you can look for issues..they will stand out.
2015 Z Force 800 (53") EPS -
Custom Air Intakes | Custom Exhaust Mod | SuperATV Harness | Custom Fenders | Custom Skid/Rock Sliders | 27" GBC Grim Reapers | Seizmik Mirrors |Конструктор (Rodin's) Doors | Dr Pulley Sliders | 1.5" Wheel Spacers | BENZ Silencer (as needed) | SATV Flip Windshield W\ Rear Shield | Dual Light Bars | Diamond Plate Storage | 9.7" GPS | Bandit Springs Rear & Gen-3 Shocks Front

My Videos On YouTube

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Offline Cosmosdan

Re: Clutch noise and problems after service
« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2016, 06:36:40 PM »
Trailbloc is correct. Can am owners have been switching to the trailbloc primary. You will find all sorts of info on them in the can am forums. I hear the Cfmoto ones are left hand threads for the puller unlike the standard ones. Just keep that in mind if you need to remove the whole clutch. You should not have to do this. The secondary is the same one on the other cfmoto machines. All the info and video NMK provided will apply to you. All you need is a 6mm bolt to open the secondary for belt removal. I know it can get tough when you haven't had to deal with this stuff before. Be patient, read the manual and then look at the machine. Have the manual with you while you are working on it. Look through the whole manual, some info is scattered in it. Sometime you don't need a special holder for the clutch. Some guys have used ratchet straps wrapped around it and tied off some place to do it. Again the can am forums will help with this too. I hate to send you there so much, but there are more of them out there and the forums are huge.
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Offline Cosmosdan

2013 Z6 Trail
Iron Baltic skid plates
UE Boom Speaker mount
RZR 800 Shocks
Mostly stock trail riding
25g. Rollers and A1

2016 Outlander max 570
Too new for mods yet

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Offline bubib5

Re: Clutch noise and problems after service
« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2016, 10:28:58 AM »
Thank you both for replying, i did some reading, all over the net, regarding the trailbloc primary, and the only thing unclear to me at this time is the torque, you guys said about 80 foot pounds, i read and seen on youtube guys doing from 35 foot pounds to even 105 foot pounds.. I guess i will first call the service where it has been done and try to find out what have they been torqueing it to and go from there..

Everything else is clear to me at this point.. whats inside it, the one way bearing, the sleeve, the spring, the weights.. i get it now..

I also noticed that the outer half should not be able to spin and should be locked with the rest of the primary, when i did the video in the first post i did notice mine was able to spin only the outer half..

Only question that remains is if its again loose, how could it happen in 50 kilometers?

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Offline kaleab

Re: Clutch noise and problems after service
« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2016, 01:04:18 PM »
Hello sir. This is from Norway. I have bought my cforce 550 EFi 2015 model with EPS around June 2015. After riding it for a while (around 1200km) I started noticing some noise which I definitely say as the exact same noise as yours now on your video. The thing that was happened was the long bolt on the primery loosened which in turn the big nut loosened. Then I took it to  the dealer and saw a lot of brownish powder metal fragments (very fine powder like and brown-ish/golden in color) and they changed both the primery, secondary and the CVT belt on warranty with no charge at all. Then I drove the ATV for about a week and experienced the same noise again. Now I will tell u that my story is exactly the same as yours and I will be more than happy to tell you exactly what the problem with your ATV CVT is from what I can see from the video you posted here. Coz that was what my dealer did too to my cf550 ATV. I might be wrong here but am almost certain what I saw missing on the video you posted and I can see the problem you have now is the problem I had before and I tell you that from the video you posted and as I zoom inn to the primery CVT of yours I can see that your dealer forgotten to put the biggest nut that holds the primery sleeve which goes inn and out in place. You can even see the primery sleeve doesnt go that much in and out as it should do normally when you Throttle up and down on the video. I can see from your video that they have putted the bigg whasher but instead of putting the big nut between the primery sleeve plate and the long bolt they putted only the long bolt without the nut inbetween. The same thing did my dealer to my ATV. I just saw the video you posted and thought I would inform you. DO NOT drive the ATV as you drive more you are going to ruin the threads on the crank shaft which that long bolt is bolten on to. My dealer told me they couldn't find any problems and told me to keep on driving. I drove for about 400 to 500 km then the bolt came loose which in turn the primery sleeve came loose flying out through the CVT plastic cover and started to smoke and catched fire. I live very up north in Norway and luckily there was lots of snow arround and managed to put off the small fire. I was driving around 60km/hr at that moment with the RPM  about 6200RPM. When this happend the RPM went nuts then I just heard a lot of metal noise from the engine and out fly comes the primery CVT smelting the CVT plastic cover and out. I will try to attach a picture so that you see the missing nut.
Sorry for my English and I really hope it will help you.
P.S because the crank shaft threads was ruined the long bolt couldn't hold on the stress from the engine and came loose for the fourth time. Now just a week ago I got a brand new engine and since my dealer here in town went bankruptcy I got the permission to change the engine my self and still keep my warranty intact. I drove now about 180km and so much happier and a whole lot of difference from my old engine.

By the way torque value is right 40NM on the long bolt on the primery CVT and 115NM on the big nut on your secondary CVT (the rear one). Make a mark on them so next time you open the CVT plastic cover you will see if the bolt or nut unloosens its self.
Remember the long bolt on the primery CVT is left hand threaded which means tightning it in right turn loosens the bolt and tightnibg it in left turn tightned it the opposite of a normal bolt.

Best regards  Kaleab.
* 2015 - Cforce 550 EFi EPS orange edition.
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* LED LOW and HIGH beam (160W and over 35000 lumen).
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* to be continued...