Author Topic: New Springs for the 800 Trail  (Read 2384 times)

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Offline NMKawierider

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New Springs for the 800 Trail
« on: August 11, 2018, 04:18:20 PM »
With my rear springs working their way down I was looking at a new set of shocks pretty soon but wasn't ready to decide between Stage 1s or 3 Elkas. A friend that I ride with who bought a new WildCat Trail LE bought some Bandit springs for his stock shocks to gain a little ground clearance but decided instead to go with some new shocks. So he had these brand new un-installed 200lb/rear and 175lb/front springs he was going to sell. He let me try them before buying and so far I have the rears on and they will work great. No more spring binding and being a little longer they didn't need to be compressed as much to hold the same clearance. Very smooth and good fit being about 2"s longer then the OEs. The front...well I will need a compressor to do those safely..and may even be to long to work... but I'll give it a try and let you guys know. Here's some pics of the new rears.






 
« Last Edit: December 09, 2018, 05:56:50 PM by NMKawierider »
2015 Z Force 800 (53") EPS -
Custom Air Intakes | Custom Exhaust Mod | SuperATV Harness | Custom Fenders | Custom Skid/Rock Sliders | 27" GBC Grim Reapers | Seizmik Mirrors |Конструктор (Rodin's) Doors | Dr Pulley Sliders | 1.5" Wheel Spacers | BENZ Silencer (as needed) | SATV Flip Windshield W\ Rear Shield | Dual Light Bars | Diamond Plate Storage | Magellan TRX7 GPS| Bandit Springs

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Offline ctdls

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Re: New springs :)
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2018, 09:08:55 PM »
Nice to be able to play a little  :) I'm a strong believer in a higher spring rate & reduced pre load. Is this the direction?
ZF 800 LX Trail, stock for now.......not for long.

Offline NMKawierider

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Re: New springs :)
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2018, 10:07:04 PM »
Nice to be able to play a little  :) I'm a strong believer in a higher spring rate & reduced pre load. Is this the direction?
Well, the direction my OE springs were taking would have put then collapsed and against themselves in probably another 400-500 miles. Loaded with a passenger..and we are talking about my 115lb wife, any bump was the end of the travel. These, although are just a single rate spring and a little longer, are in the same weight range, 200lbs, as the OE springs. I would suspect now it will bottom out on the bumper instead of the springs. Still want a set of Elkas.. but want to wait until these start leaking. These springs should buy some time. Here's what the OEs looked like.




2015 Z Force 800 (53") EPS -
Custom Air Intakes | Custom Exhaust Mod | SuperATV Harness | Custom Fenders | Custom Skid/Rock Sliders | 27" GBC Grim Reapers | Seizmik Mirrors |Конструктор (Rodin's) Doors | Dr Pulley Sliders | 1.5" Wheel Spacers | BENZ Silencer (as needed) | SATV Flip Windshield W\ Rear Shield | Dual Light Bars | Diamond Plate Storage | Magellan TRX7 GPS| Bandit Springs

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Offline NMKawierider

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Re: New springs :)
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2018, 08:35:11 AM »
Shoot..well, built a spring compressor, easily removed the stock front springs..but the new Bandits are just too long. Even if I was to force them on the preload would be much higher then the stocks with the preload adjusters backed completely off..so much so they probably wouldn't move. Fortunately my friend said he would sell me just the rears if the fronts didn't work so...that's cool. The rears are what I needed anyway. 
2015 Z Force 800 (53") EPS -
Custom Air Intakes | Custom Exhaust Mod | SuperATV Harness | Custom Fenders | Custom Skid/Rock Sliders | 27" GBC Grim Reapers | Seizmik Mirrors |Конструктор (Rodin's) Doors | Dr Pulley Sliders | 1.5" Wheel Spacers | BENZ Silencer (as needed) | SATV Flip Windshield W\ Rear Shield | Dual Light Bars | Diamond Plate Storage | Magellan TRX7 GPS| Bandit Springs

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Offline glenlivet

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Re: New springs :)
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2018, 09:14:29 AM »
My stock setup appears to have been just like yours and my front shocks were assembled with almost no preload slack left, the collar was 1/4" from the top of the threads. My stock rear on the other hand had four full inches of thread with which to accommodate a longer spring. Your installed rears look like they should.  :)
« Last Edit: August 13, 2018, 09:16:44 AM by glenlivet »
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Offline NMKawierider

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Re: New springs :)
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2018, 09:26:53 AM »
My stock setup appears to have been just like yours and my front shocks were assembled with almost no preload slack left, the collar was 1/4" from the top of the threads. My stock rear on the other hand had four full inches of thread with which to accommodate a longer spring. Your installed rears look like they should.  :)
Yeah I was getting down to within an inch or so from the end of the threads with the old ones..there was 120mms of threads showing with the old ones and 75mms showing with these here....although I did pick up the preload a hair more after these pics were taken to 80mms showing. It's amazing that just 5mms increase in preload picked it up another inch in back.  Anyway-big difference...and still lots of adjustment either way so..I don't think I can go wrong with these.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2018, 09:30:35 AM by NMKawierider »
2015 Z Force 800 (53") EPS -
Custom Air Intakes | Custom Exhaust Mod | SuperATV Harness | Custom Fenders | Custom Skid/Rock Sliders | 27" GBC Grim Reapers | Seizmik Mirrors |Конструктор (Rodin's) Doors | Dr Pulley Sliders | 1.5" Wheel Spacers | BENZ Silencer (as needed) | SATV Flip Windshield W\ Rear Shield | Dual Light Bars | Diamond Plate Storage | Magellan TRX7 GPS| Bandit Springs

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Offline doug80638

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Re: New springs :)
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2018, 12:09:01 PM »

Can you give us the spec particulars on the springs themselves?

I would love to swap out the springs in the back of my trail as well and am looking for a starting point.
2017 Zforce 800 - Red
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Offline NMKawierider

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Re: New springs :)
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2018, 12:28:26 PM »

Can you give us the spec particulars on the springs themselves?

I would love to swap out the springs in the back of my trail as well and am looking for a starting point.
I can get the measurements. This is the spring kit he got. Not sure if it was the medium or heavy but they are stamped 200lb for the rear and 175 for the front...which I can't use. The A/C trail stock waits less then the CFM trail at just over a 1000lbs. I'll get the other measurements in a bit.

https://www.banditutvsuspension.com/product-page/textron-arctic-cat-wildcat-trail-upgrade-spring-kit
2015 Z Force 800 (53") EPS -
Custom Air Intakes | Custom Exhaust Mod | SuperATV Harness | Custom Fenders | Custom Skid/Rock Sliders | 27" GBC Grim Reapers | Seizmik Mirrors |Конструктор (Rodin's) Doors | Dr Pulley Sliders | 1.5" Wheel Spacers | BENZ Silencer (as needed) | SATV Flip Windshield W\ Rear Shield | Dual Light Bars | Diamond Plate Storage | Magellan TRX7 GPS| Bandit Springs

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Offline NMKawierider

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Re: New springs :)
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2018, 01:37:14 PM »
Here's the measurements on the springs:


2015 Z Force 800 (53") EPS -
Custom Air Intakes | Custom Exhaust Mod | SuperATV Harness | Custom Fenders | Custom Skid/Rock Sliders | 27" GBC Grim Reapers | Seizmik Mirrors |Конструктор (Rodin's) Doors | Dr Pulley Sliders | 1.5" Wheel Spacers | BENZ Silencer (as needed) | SATV Flip Windshield W\ Rear Shield | Dual Light Bars | Diamond Plate Storage | Magellan TRX7 GPS| Bandit Springs

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Offline cr2crf

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Re: New springs :)
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2018, 03:16:45 PM »
NMK - very informative measurements on the springs.  The Stock springs look like duel or triple rate springs.  In working on dirt bike suspension for years, duel rates sound nice in theory but rarely work as planned.  I prefer to revalve and keep a straight spring rate.

From the sound of it, over time your rig got heavier or your springs seem to have worn out.  Good steel springs rarely wear out (so much for the stock ones).  When the preload ring is cranked down on the stock springs to give more ride height, it can create dead coils and limit travel and nullify the reason for duel rate springs.  The ones you installed look great and I bet they feel much more compliant (unfortunately we don't know what the valving looks like inside - I will attempt to open mine up this winter to see if I can "Fix" the insides).  If an internal fix is discovered it would cost far less to revalve and respring then to buy new from Elka or Fox, etc.

I found this formula online to determine the spring rate for your springs (if you want to do the math).  It's longer then the one I use but I'm at the office right now (and should be working but...) and can't get to mine.  Always good to have a spring rate calculator formula around.  Never know when you may need one.

Coil Spring Rate Formula:

11,250,000 - Torsional Modules For Steel (Constant)

CSPWD - Coil Spring Wire Diameter (How thick is the wire?)

8 - Constant

NOAC - Number Of Active Coils (Coils that are free to move.  Not coils seated.  It may be that 1/2 of the top and bottom coil is seated causing a spring with 8 coils to have the distance of 7 free.) 

CMD - Coil Mean Diameter (The diameter from center to center of the coil. Measure the diameter of the coil from wire center to wire center. If you know the coil is .5 inches thick and the outside diameter of the coil spring is 3 inches, then the Coil Mean Diameter would be 2.5 inches)

(11,250,000 x (CSWD x 4))
(8 x NOAC x (CMD x 3))

Offline NMKawierider

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Re: New springs :)
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2018, 03:27:10 PM »
I'm in talks with Bandit about building something for the Zs and the Us that makes better sense then Elkas. They also said the springs I got from my friend were Mediums. The Heavy's are 200 front and 225 rear.   
2015 Z Force 800 (53") EPS -
Custom Air Intakes | Custom Exhaust Mod | SuperATV Harness | Custom Fenders | Custom Skid/Rock Sliders | 27" GBC Grim Reapers | Seizmik Mirrors |Конструктор (Rodin's) Doors | Dr Pulley Sliders | 1.5" Wheel Spacers | BENZ Silencer (as needed) | SATV Flip Windshield W\ Rear Shield | Dual Light Bars | Diamond Plate Storage | Magellan TRX7 GPS| Bandit Springs

My Videos On YouTube

Offline cr2crf

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Re: New springs :)
« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2018, 04:04:21 PM »
I'm in talks with Bandit about building something for the Zs and the Us that makes better sense then Elkas. They also said the springs I got from my friend were Mediums. The Heavy's are 200 front and 225 rear.

Good to know.  If there is enough interest, I know a spring guy that can help us out (for those with only a spring budget).

Offline NMKawierider

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Re: New springs :)
« Reply #12 on: August 13, 2018, 04:29:25 PM »
Just got an email back. They would be happy to build shocks and I'll bet just springs to fit any needs. Just get them a few measurements and let them know what it's going on and any extra weight needs. Here's part of the email conversation:

"Hello Clark, we can build the shocks for them. We started to consider it about a year ago but never had requests for them yet. Example we did and still build shocks for the odes but we don't have them on our new website. If anyone needed shocks they could email us exact length and mount widths and we can calculate everything else from the oe weight listings of the manufacturer.
Thanks
Bandit Utv Suspension
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2015 Z Force 800 (53") EPS -
Custom Air Intakes | Custom Exhaust Mod | SuperATV Harness | Custom Fenders | Custom Skid/Rock Sliders | 27" GBC Grim Reapers | Seizmik Mirrors |Конструктор (Rodin's) Doors | Dr Pulley Sliders | 1.5" Wheel Spacers | BENZ Silencer (as needed) | SATV Flip Windshield W\ Rear Shield | Dual Light Bars | Diamond Plate Storage | Magellan TRX7 GPS| Bandit Springs

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Offline doug80638

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Re: New springs :)
« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2018, 07:16:06 PM »

I'm with you on this.

I'm pretty happy with the front suspension. It's the rear suspension that is tougher to deal with.

$100 for a pair of springs that makes the rear ride more compliant and improve suspension performance is an easy spend, and then wait for the the shock to wear out before spending the big bucks. By then, Bandit might have the answer for all 4 corners.

Are the inside coil diameters where they meet the shock the same as the stock springs?

Thanks for doing all the leg work for us!

2017 Zforce 800 - Red
SuperATV Flip windshield
Tusk soft rear window
Twin-Air foam air filter

Offline NMKawierider

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Re: New springs :)
« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2018, 07:33:13 PM »

Are the inside coil diameters where they meet the shock the same as the stock springs?

Probably a slight difference but they fit fine, have what looks to be the same distance between the shock body and spring and don't rub. I'll measure anyway and post back.
2015 Z Force 800 (53") EPS -
Custom Air Intakes | Custom Exhaust Mod | SuperATV Harness | Custom Fenders | Custom Skid/Rock Sliders | 27" GBC Grim Reapers | Seizmik Mirrors |Конструктор (Rodin's) Doors | Dr Pulley Sliders | 1.5" Wheel Spacers | BENZ Silencer (as needed) | SATV Flip Windshield W\ Rear Shield | Dual Light Bars | Diamond Plate Storage | Magellan TRX7 GPS| Bandit Springs

My Videos On YouTube